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 July 12th 2010 - Garchomp

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Elfar
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PostSubject: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:30 pm


Ahhh Garchomp, this beast pretty much defined Gen IV metagame. Directly or indirectly, almost every Gen IV tier movement had something to do with Garchomp, from his controversial banishment to Uber to Latias going down to OU and back to Uber again, Garchomp has always been a defining Pokemon in Gen IV OU, even with him being an Uber.
For obvious reasons, this analysis will focus on Garchomp being an Uber and not an OU, however, the set that made Garchomp uber will be written and analized, to give an idea of the reasons of his ban and hopefully reduce the arguments. Kepp in mind, however, that this wont be a discuss thread, and thus trying to start a discussion will result in the topic getting locked

Choice Scarf
252 Atk/252Spd/4 HP
Jolly
Choice Scarf

Earthquake
Stone Edge
Outrage
Dragon Claw/Toxic

Cool as Lucario, fast as Ninjask, powerful as Scizor and with a fresh smell of dirt, Choice Scarf Garchomp is quite a potent revenge killer. While with most Garchomp sets Adamant is a viable option, Choice versions NEED Jolly with a good reason. Jolly and 252 Spd EVs leave you at 499 Speed, making impossible for anything other than other Choice Scarfers and max speed Deoxy-S to outrun you.
The moves grant flawless coverage, and help you with potent Uber threats extremely hard, including Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Rayquaza, Dialga and Palkia and the Latis.
While fast, however, Garchomp lacks the sheer power some other Uber Pokemons have(Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Mewtwo etc) or the ability to set-up to sweep (Lucario, Rayquaza, the Latis, Mewtwo and Darkrai) and thus should be used exclusively as a revenge killer

Choice Band
Jolly/Adamant
252Atk/252Spd/4 HP
Choice Band

Outrage
Earthquake
Stone Edge
Dragon Claw

If you though Scizor`s Bullet Punch was powerful, you should feel the power of this thing`s Outrage. While Choice Scarf Garchomp is a revenge killer, Choice Band Chomp is more of a wallbreaker, hitting extremely hard to help set-up sweepers have an easier time sweeping against the way bulkier attackers and walls you find in Ubers, such as Giratina, Dialga and Groudon.
Jolly is the prefered option, as Palkia tends to run +Spd Natures, thus reaching 328 speed, way faster that Garchomp`s 303 if he chooses to go for Adamant.
Keep in mind, however, that no matter what nature you choose, there are some extremely fast Pokemons in Ubers, Lugia, Deoxy-S, Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Mewtwo, Dragon Dance Rayquaza and even the rare Dragon Dance Salamence make tough for CB Garchomp to come in.

Yachechomp
Jolly/Adamant
252Atk/252Spd/4HP
Yache Berry

Sword Dance
Outrage
Earthquake
Fire Fang

Finally, the set that pushed Garchomp to Ubers, extrenely powerful, extremely bulky...and extremely simple to use. The basic premise was simple: come into a weak attack, set up on the switch, sweep as if you were a maid in Bill Gates`s mansion. What made this Garchomp set so popular was that, even when everyone and their mother knew what moves it carries, it was simply uncounterable except by extremely gimmicky stuff -cough-ScarfCune-cough-, making every team run something like:
Lead/T-tar/Garchomp/Garchomp Counter1/Garchomp Counter 2/Garchomp counter counter.
Garchomp was in 30% of the teams, the teams that didnt run him were designed to defeat those that did, and even then, they often times failed, testament of the sheer power a Sword Dance Outrage carried, making even the bulkiest Pokemons unable to lift a finger against him.

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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:32 pm

If I recall ScarfChomp ran Fire Blast over Dragon Claw / Toxic, so it could score a 2hko on Bronzong and Skarmory
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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:54 pm

SirFunchalot wrote:
If I recall ScarfChomp ran Fire Blast over Dragon Claw / Toxic, so it could score a 2hko on Bronzong and Skarmory
These aren't meant to be a copy of Smogon

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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:48 pm

Just because the set is that way on Smogon and Serebii doesn't mean it makes more sense to run inferior moves over Fire Blast just to be more original. Fire Blast is straight up better than Dragon Claw or Toxic is on Choice Scarf Garchomp.
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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:15 pm

SirFunchalot wrote:
Just because the set is that way on Smogon and Serebii doesn't mean it makes more sense to run inferior moves over Fire Blast just to be more original. Fire Blast is straight up better than Dragon Claw or Toxic is on Choice Scarf Garchomp.
And just how many Skarmory/Bronzong do you see in Ubers?

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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:33 pm

Gir wrote:
SirFunchalot wrote:
Just because the set is that way on Smogon and Serebii doesn't mean it makes more sense to run inferior moves over Fire Blast just to be more original. Fire Blast is straight up better than Dragon Claw or Toxic is on Choice Scarf Garchomp.
And just how many Skarmory/Bronzong do you see in Ubers?

But, Scizor and Forretress are very common
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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:40 pm

Shnoogle wrote:
Gir wrote:
SirFunchalot wrote:
Just because the set is that way on Smogon and Serebii doesn't mean it makes more sense to run inferior moves over Fire Blast just to be more original. Fire Blast is straight up better than Dragon Claw or Toxic is on Choice Scarf Garchomp.
And just how many Skarmory/Bronzong do you see in Ubers?

But, Scizor and Forretress are very common
Considering SR are up, Scizor is 2HKOd, and Forretress is 3HKO by Earthquake, in addition, it is really common to use both, SR AND Spikes in Uber

Bad calculation, Forretress does survive 3 EQs

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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:20 pm

Gir wrote:
Shnoogle wrote:
Gir wrote:
SirFunchalot wrote:
Just because the set is that way on Smogon and Serebii doesn't mean it makes more sense to run inferior moves over Fire Blast just to be more original. Fire Blast is straight up better than Dragon Claw or Toxic is on Choice Scarf Garchomp.
And just how many Skarmory/Bronzong do you see in Ubers?

But, Scizor and Forretress are very common
Considering SR are up, Scizor is 2HKOd, and Forretress is 3HKO by Earthquake, in addition, it is really common to use both, SR AND Spikes in Uber

Bad calculation, Forretress does survive 3 EQs

Did you take into consideration that most Scizor in Ubers have max HP?
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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:04 pm

Shnoogle wrote:
Gir wrote:
Shnoogle wrote:
Gir wrote:
SirFunchalot wrote:
Just because the set is that way on Smogon and Serebii doesn't mean it makes more sense to run inferior moves over Fire Blast just to be more original. Fire Blast is straight up better than Dragon Claw or Toxic is on Choice Scarf Garchomp.
And just how many Skarmory/Bronzong do you see in Ubers?

But, Scizor and Forretress are very common
Considering SR are up, Scizor is 2HKOd, and Forretress is 3HKO by Earthquake, in addition, it is really common to use both, SR AND Spikes in Uber

Bad calculation, Forretress does survive 3 EQs

Did you take into consideration that most Scizor in Ubers have max HP?
I ran the calculation considering the Uber Choice Bander set from smogon, and Forretress physically defensive set

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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:13 pm

Skarm isn't as common as forretress, but it isn't that uncommon. Being a dragon/ground resist that can phaze and set up entry hazzards is still a pretty good asset to have. And Fire Blast also gets a great amount of extra power from the Sun.
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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:59 pm

what about fire fang?
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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:07 pm

Fire Fang has a much lower base power, and the physical walls that Fire Blast normally can OHKO, Fire Fang cannot, because it's physical.
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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:20 pm

I definitely do not consider GArchomp an Uber. Any trick room team or ice pokemon can take him out quite easily. If a pokemon can go down to one ice shard, it is NOT an uber
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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:25 pm

JeSus wrote:
I definitely do not consider GArchomp an Uber. Any trick room team or ice pokemon can take him out quite easily. If a pokemon can go down to one ice shard, it is NOT an uber
rofl
are u kidding me
garchomp overcentralizes the metagame
And name 1 thing
that is not ohkoed or 2hkoed by +2 eq/outrage, and not to mention, the only thing that resists dragon is steel, which is owned by eq
not to mention, it didnt really have any counters, and is pretty buly with like base 100 hp, and decent defenses
not to mention its 102 speed stat and massive attack stat
Garchomp forced every1 to run a lot of checks to it that can revenge kill it
Ice shard is revenge killing
which basically means it can just switch out, since it has already koed 1 poke.
Due to chomp, every1 ran sand, b/c of sand veil, so ice shard might not even hit all the time. Not to mention it could run mix as well, and ko mamo in 1 hit with fire blast, as well as weavile
main reasons y it went uber
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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:46 pm

Darkravenn12 wrote:
JeSus wrote:
I definitely do not consider GArchomp an Uber. Any trick room team or ice pokemon can take him out quite easily. If a pokemon can go down to one ice shard, it is NOT an uber
rofl
are u kidding me
garchomp overcentralizes the metagame
And name 1 thing
that is not ohkoed or 2hkoed by +2 eq/outrage, and not to mention, the only thing that resists dragon is steel, which is owned by eq
not to mention, it didnt really have any counters, and is pretty buly with like base 100 hp, and decent defenses
not to mention its 102 speed stat and massive attack stat
Garchomp forced every1 to run a lot of checks to it that can revenge kill it
Ice shard is revenge killing
which basically means it can just switch out, since it has already koed 1 poke.
Due to chomp, every1 ran sand, b/c of sand veil, so ice shard might not even hit all the time. Not to mention it could run mix as well, and ko mamo in 1 hit with fire blast, as well as weavile
main reasons y it went uber
It's probably just because I run miostly Trickroom teams, but a lot iof my sweeper ice pokes have ice shard and can use it on a Garchomp quite easily
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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:47 pm

And anyway, most ice sweepers should have ice shard just to combat the Dragonites and Salamences out there. Latias is an Uber, Garchomp is NOT
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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:55 pm

JeSus wrote:
And anyway, most ice sweepers should have ice shard just to combat the Dragonites and Salamences out there. Latias is an Uber, Garchomp is NOT

Breaking news for you, Garchomp has been an Uber for a long while. Also, I want you to tell a SINGLE Pokemon that could switch in into YacheChomp after he got a SD. Just 1 SINGLE pokemon

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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:12 pm

I don't know much of the Ubers metagame but If I were to guess Darkrai? Anyways this is OLD news. Garchomp, in my opinion, is just like Mence BUT Garchomp is more Bulkyer and It is VERY hard to take Garchomp out. Sure Ice Shard can but That's revenge killing and If Sandstorm is out it isn't a guarantee that Ice Shard will even Hit Garchomp. There are very few counters if not any.

Sorry if I repeated anything you guys said.
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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:50 pm

I just think that Garchomp is so outclassed in the Ubers tier that you are pretty much saying don't use it anymore
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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:07 pm

JeSus wrote:
I just think that Garchomp is so outclassed in the Ubers tier that you are pretty much saying don't use it anymore
it doesnt matter how good the poke is in ubers
its by defintion a banlist for ou, just like bl is for uu
if its too good for that, its in ubers

Amen... Something that few people actually realize is what you just said. A pokemon's preformance in Ubers is completely irrelevent to how powerful it is in OU.

Not to mention the fact that in Ubers, Garchomp is actually a pretty good Pokemon. It is an excellent scarfer, Haban berry Swords Dancer, among other things. It's typing is also amazing. The only Pokemon that doesn't get hit neutrally by its STABs are Skarmory and levitate Bronzong which Fire Blast says hello to.

There are so many reasons why Garchomp is Uber it isn't even funny.

It seems that you are sticking to your guns about Garchomp being Uber, but even so your reasons are awful. Why should people have to run trick room teams just to counter 1 Pokemon? Or have two scarfers and an Ice sharder (and the latter loses to Yache Berry Chomp, the set that pushed it to Uber)?

Garchomp belongs in Uber, definitely, and anyone who says otherwise obviously doesn't have much experience in competative Pokemon or just is not very smart

Sorry Darkravven, I accidentally hit the edit button when I tried to quote you :/

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PostSubject: Re: July 12th 2010 - Garchomp   Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:45 pm

JeSus wrote:
I just think that Garchomp is so outclassed in the Ubers tier that you are pretty much saying don't use it anymore
7
An Uber is deemed Uber depending on how poerful it is in OU, not in Uber

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