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 Introducing...owait

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Shnoogle
Neku
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Bulldogs




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PostSubject: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyWed Feb 24, 2010 2:16 pm

Anyone remember that epic bug from Adv...?? Anyway, I tried to build a more original team mainly for wifi play. It packs a few unusual sets and Pokemon.

Introducing...owait 2h5tgjl

Introducing...owait 472 (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 204 HP / 88 Atk / 216 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Roost
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt

I lead off with Gliscor. A rather fast Taunt helps against Hyper Offense and other random gimmicks such as Trick Room. Taunt also ruins stall and makes it easier for Hera to sweep if he can't be phazed that turn. Since this team has no Choice Users, Gliscor is often the one I send to take the Scarf from Trick leads such as Jirachi and Metagross. If Lucario gets set up, I can be in trouble if Gliscor is low on healt which is why I run Roost > U-turn. The EVs provide good bulk, enough Attack to 2HKO standard Lead Metagross, and enough speed to outrun all forms of Lucario barring Scarf and the rare Agility set. The only leads I always completely lose to are Mamoswine, Empoleon, Swampert.


Introducing...owait 2h5tgjl

Introducing...owait 485 (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 44 SAtk / 216 SDef
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Earth Power
- Lava Plume
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

ResTalk Heatran is a fucking beast. When looking at Heatran, most people ignore his walling potential due to a 4x weak to the most common move in the game. However, Heatran has some of the best defensive typing in the game, with many resistances and an immunity to Fire, making him an incredible special wall. I needed someone to absorb sleep and random T-waves that would hinder Heracross' sweep, but could also dish out damage of its own. It is also my initial switchin to non-Scarfed Rotom including Rotom-w who can't 2HKO with Hydro Pump. Lava Plume's 30% chance of burn has saved me countless times against incoming Tyranitar and the like and can often times disuade threatening Dragon Dancers such as Gyarados and Salamence from trying to setup on me. Earth Power get's decent coverage alongside Lava Plume and prevents opposing Heatran and Tyranitar from walling me and coming in for free respectively. 248 HP EVs is Heatran's highest Leftovers number while 216 Special Defense gives him good walling ability with the rest dumped in Special Attack to make him a potent offensive threat as well.


Introducing...owait 2h5tgjl

Introducing...owait Gby009 (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin
- Surf
- Toxic

Blastoise is often times seen as outclassed as a spinner in OU by its Water-type counterpart Starmie. I'm not denying that Starmie is generally better but Blastoise is much bulkier. I needed a spinner to make sure Spikes damage doesn't end Heracross' sweep earlier, to keep my Wisher alive by removing Stealth Rock, and a check to DD Mence, I also didn't want to corrupt my current synergy so I decided to kill 2 birds with one stone as the saying goes and use Blastoise. +1 Life Orb Outrage from Mence deals only 91% max while I can KO with Ice Beam. Toxic is great for hitting Gyarados and other common switchins which mostly consist of bulky Waters and Rotom. I usually Toxic right off the bat to scout for the said switchins. Surf is the obligatory STAB and hits Infernape and Heatran for Super Effective Damage, 2 Pokemon that can be quite threatening. EVs simply maximize my physical bulk, necesarry to check DD Mence.


Introducing...owait 2h5tgjl

Introducing...owait Emespr373 (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SAtk
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Roost
- Wish

Glancing at the team, I saw that any SD Scizor that ran speed EVs could easily plow threw this team. This modified FatMence only takes 66% max from an Adamant Life Orb variant. A Wish passer also gives Heracross multiple chances to setup, and keeps my spinner alive. If Machamp is pissing me off I can always go to Mence and grab a quick intimidate which also keeps opposing physical threats such as Physical Infernape and the ever annoying Breloom. Flamethrower hits Lucario lacking Ice Punch and KOs Scizor as well as having good coverage alongside Draco Meteor, which still hits quite hard even coming off of only 300 Special Attack. Roost is for recovery to make sure that Wish has time to come into effect without me being KOd, and also weakens Ice Attacks from slower attackers allowing me to stall or eventually take them down.


Introducing...owait 2h5tgjl

Introducing...owait Gbs251 @ Life Orb
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 232 HP / 32 Spd / 244 SAtk
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Leaf Storm
- Recover
- Thunder Wave

I chose Tinkerbell Celebi for it's decent synergy with Heracross and its strategic role alongside Heracross. When looking at what really stops Heracross from achieving a sweep, the main things that came to mind were its mediocre speed and Scizor. This set allieviates both of those problems. It spreads paralysis and often lures out Scizor a lot and promptly KOs with a Life Orb Hidden Power Fire. If for some reason Hera is down or weakened, and unable to use Crocune to get a free Swords Dance, then Celebi will deal up to ~93% to +1 Suicune. Recover gives Celebi some survivability and allows it to become a decent check to Gyarados. The EVs allow Celebi to outrun Jolly Tyranitar and KO with Leaf Storm. The HP EVs take minimun damage from Life Orb with the highest HP possible with the rest in Special Attack.


Introducing...owait 2h5tgjl

Introducing...owait Gbg214 (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Guts
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Megahorn
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance

The forgotten threat of DPPt. The most potent physical threat of Adv has somehow reached near UU status after being banned from standard play in Japan in the last generation. The current metagame prefers faster threats with priority. namely Lucario. However, Heracross is much more powerful than its fellow Fighting-type, and has two base 120 STAB Attacks that achieve great coverage. Guts allows it to come in WoW and Toxic allowing it to absolutely molest stall teams. The best thing about Heracross though,is the fact that it is often times overlooked when building teams. The amount of 6-0s I've gotten with this beast compared to my regular teams is astounding. After a SD, against any Gliscor lacking AA, which is nearly all of them, Stone Edge is a clean 2HKO. If they choose to Roost they will fall to a STAB Close Combat. Megahorn 2HKOs the bulkiest of Rotom.

Thank you for reading my RMT. I'm sorry if the formatting was hard on your eyes. I hope you will all see the power of Heracross now. Very Happy
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Neku

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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyWed Feb 24, 2010 3:28 pm

Well I mean most know that Heracross is a threatening pokemon not to be underestimated. I think it's a little redundant to have Roost and
Wish on a Mence, I'd say keep Roost and scrap Wish. I also think that Jirachi would do a better job setting up your team mates over Celebi.
Perhaps you should consider this, a Wish Support/Physical Jirachi.

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Nature: Jolly/Adamant Depending on whether you want more Attack or Speed.
EVs: 252 Spe/ / 186 Atk/ 76 HP

-Thunder Wave/Iron Head
-Wish
-Fire Punch
-Ice Punch
This set is support/Annoying As Jirachi tends to be. He can T-Wave when you want him to and heal himself as well as his teammates.
He still fends off your Scizors and Ice punch is nice coverage.
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Bulldogs




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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyWed Feb 24, 2010 4:06 pm

Roost is there to ensure that Mence doesn't go down on the turn wish would normally activate. The problem with running that Jirachi would be that Hera would be my only answer to Suicune, and Fire Punch isn't uncommon on Jirachi so it wouldn't exactly bait any Scizor in. thanks for the rate though.
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Shnoogle

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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyWed Feb 24, 2010 4:17 pm

Kinda curious... What are the 44 sp. Attack evs for on heatran? And what is the purpose of a modest nature over, say, calm or bold?
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Bulldogs




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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyWed Feb 24, 2010 4:40 pm

The 44 Special Attack EVs are filler but the extra power is most welcome. Maxing Special Defense wasn't needed as it didn't stop any KOs or 2HKOs so I just hit the highest jump point.
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Shnoogle

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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyWed Feb 24, 2010 4:47 pm

Oh ok then. That makes sense now thanks =p

Yeah good lookim team it looks sort of intimidating...

However I have one little nitpick -
Your salamence just looks like set up fodder the way you are playing it. With minimal attacking investment, draco meteor still won't OHKO much, and if it does you just gave another pokemon a free chance to set up because you have only 1 other coverage move and it is not that powerful. Add to that that a smart opponent will predict when you will be wishing around and that is just more bad stuff for you considering you have NO priority AT ALL
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ARandomBoy

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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyWed Feb 24, 2010 5:55 pm

Looks like a pretty solid team. However, I do have a few little bits and recommendations you may want to consider.

If Mence is supposed to be staying in for at least a decent amount of time, then Dragon Pulse is superior to Draco Meteor. After one Draco Meteor, neither of your two attacking moves will be doing much. Dragon Pulse is the more reliable choice.

Also, if you're going to go full-out attacker with Heracross, I suggest using a Flame Orb instead of Leftovers on it. This will activate Guts at the cost of 12.5% HP every turn. If you have Wish support from Mence or anyone else you may choose to replace it with, this becomes lesser of an issue.

EDIT: Forget Tentacruel. I feel that what I suggested below fits more appropriately. Wink


Last edited by ARandomBoy on Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Herpdidderp

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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyWed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm

Shnoogle wrote:
However I have one little nitpick -
Your salamence just looks like set up fodder the way you are playing it. With minimal attacking investment, draco meteor still won't OHKO much, and if it does you just gave another pokemon a free chance to set up because you have only 1 other coverage move and it is not that powerful. Add to that that a smart opponent will predict when you will be wishing around and that is just more bad stuff for you considering you have NO priority AT ALL
This really doesn't make sense. Any set running Draco Meteor is automatic set up bait the second the attack lands if it has no physical options, such as Latias. The point is not to run around bomb the opponent's team with Draco Meteor but rather use it tactically. It really hurts Gyarados switches, other Mences, Latias, Vaporeon, etc. It also baits Scizor in to try and revenge it in many situations but the added bulk prevents it from coming close to a OHKO with SR.

However the set in generally seems like it's holding the team back. Latias could fill this role quite well as it baits out Scizor more effectively and provides a OHKO with HP-Fire. Doesn't make your team any less weak to Tyranitar either since Mence couldn't do anything against just about every variant.

@ARandomBoy: Though Tentacruel would be nice on the team, it cannot check DD Mence. It is also unadvised to use Toxic Spikes on a team that revolves around a Pokemon sweeping that really needs the T-Wave support. Flame Orb also goes against the bulky synergy of the team. It would help on a faster team that could use the attack boost but otherwise it will only hold Heracross back. Not to mention Heracross and Salamence generally lack the synergy for Mence to Wish Pass to Heracross, which Latias would provide (hint hint).
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Bulldogs




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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyWed Feb 24, 2010 6:24 pm

Herp's post pretty much summed it up. Latias sounds good and I will give it a try. Thanks for the rates guys.
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ARandomBoy

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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyWed Feb 24, 2010 6:27 pm

Herpdidderp wrote:
@ARandomBoy: Though Tentacruel would be nice on the team, it cannot check DD Mence. It is also unadvised to use Toxic Spikes on a team that revolves around a Pokemon sweeping that really needs the T-Wave support. Flame Orb also goes against the bulky synergy of the team. It would help on a faster team that could use the attack boost but otherwise it will only hold Heracross back. Not to mention Heracross and Salamence generally lack the synergy for Mence to Wish Pass to Heracross, which Latias would provide (hint hint).

It's true that it can't check DD Mence, but I was suggesting it as more of a supporter (rather than a true 'check').

Although, really, why does this team need Rapid Spin support? It has only one Poke that's weak to SR and that Poke has both Wish and Roost. So forget Tentacruel! If you want a check to DD Mence, DD Gyara, and a fantastic Wish passer, Vaporeon is where you want to go. Depending on which you fear more, you can run Ice Beam or Hidden Power [Electric]. Both Pokemon fear Vaporeon greatly, and you can afford to run a more offensively oriented Salamence if you choose to add in Vappy.

However, if you'd prefer no Rapid Spin support (as I mentioned before, you really don't need it) but with a very reliable counter to DD Mence / DD Gyara and a better Wish passer than Salamence, Vaporeon is your go-to guy (or girl?). And as you probably know already, Mence is absolute offensive BEAST is played correctly.

Here's your duo, should you choose to use it ( Wink ):

~~

Introducing...owait Vaporeon

Vaporeon@Leftovers
188 HP / 252 Def / 68 Spe
Bold
Water Absorb

-Wish
-Protect
-Surf
-Ice Beam / Hidden Power [Electric]



Introducing...owait Salamence

Salamence@Life Orb
16 Atk / 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive
Intimidate

-Draco Meteor
-Earthquake
-Fire Blast
-Outrage

The reason I see MixMence fitting in here rather than DD Mence is because MixMence is suited for straight up right-away attacking. DD Mence prefers some time to set up. The reason this makes a difference is because MixMence's job is to wreak havoc early game so that a late-game sweeper (Heracross, in this case) can clean up afterward.

~~

I also hope this one helps. Wink
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Neku

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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyWed Feb 24, 2010 6:49 pm

Bulldogs wrote:
Roost is there to ensure that Mence doesn't go down on the turn wish would normally activate. The problem with running that Jirachi would be that Hera would be my only answer to Suicune, and Fire Punch isn't uncommon on Jirachi so it wouldn't exactly bait any Scizor in. thanks for the rate though.
Nono I don't have an issue with Roost I meant wish if I said scrap Roost. Which is why I suggested the Jirachi for Wish. And even so, if you can't drag Scizor out with Jirachi as bait you still have coverage towards him so there isn't much to fear. As long as you switch out and predict scizor.
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Herpdidderp

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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyWed Feb 24, 2010 8:16 pm

@ARandomBoy: Never use Vaporeon unless your team has Rapid Spin support is a rule I use for slower teams like this one that's more about bulky offense. Lack of SR makes Vaporeon very Toxic Spikes weak. And Toxic ruins Vaporeon thoroughly. Honestly Vaporeon cannot check Mence effectively, though it is a nice defense to Gyarados. Vaporeon cannot switch into Mence easily and usually ends up being nothing more than a staller and sturdy Gyara counter while cautiously checking other threats. Even Jolly DD Mence OHKO's Vaporeon with SR down (87.18% of the time so any form of prior damage secures it) and Adamant outright OHKO's. And without a Spinner there is no way you can make sure SR is away so it is in no way a check. It can't switch into Mix Mence either since it's 2HKO'd by LO Outrage and Naive Mence's Draco Meteor then Outrage. To reiterate Vaporeon is a bad Mence check, more of a revenge killer if you don't mind it being crippled or keeping it at 100% the whole match.

Mence is worse. Mence cannot check Mence. Mence stays the f*ck away from Mence. You can't do anything to it other than hope for a revenge kill on one not set up.

The team needs RS support if it has Mence running around. Mix Mence teams are extremely dependant on bringing down Scizor if they care about Mence living for more than a turn. Tinkerbell really really hates both Toxic Spikes and Spikes if they're accompanied with SR since it really can only take one hit well and has to recover it off later. Spikes/TS/SR neuter that set essentially. Same thing goes for Heatran to an extent, though it has no issues with Toxic Spikes. Rest/Sleep Talk sets really hate Spikes/SR set up since they have to Rest constantly to deal with minor hits which makes them easier to set up on (TS adds to this but not in this case due to Heatran's immunity). This team is bulky offense and having a spinner is really advantageous to it's survival.
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Shnoogle

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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyWed Feb 24, 2010 8:35 pm

im just posting this to back up my claim that apparently made no sense

What I said in different wording was that that mence's lack of power in combination with a move that halves special attack and only 1 secondary move that is a STABless 95 power moves just means it is an opportunity for the opponent to set up after you killed something with draco meteor.

The second part was that you don't have any priority therefore after you switch mence out and they grab a free swords dance/agility/nasty plot or whatever, you have no way to revenge kill it.

Also, a smart opponent will know when you will pop salamence in and out to pass wishes giving ample time to set up, so I just advised caution.

It made sense, i just don't think you wanted it to so that you can make yourself look like a know-it-all for your first post here... And by the way, welcome =P
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Herpdidderp

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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyWed Feb 24, 2010 8:45 pm

Shnoogle wrote:
im just posting this to back up my claim that apparently made no sense

What I said in different wording was that that mence's lack of power in combination with a move that halves special attack and only 1 secondary move that is a STABless 95 power moves just means it is an opportunity for the opponent to set up after you killed something with draco meteor.

The second part was that you don't have any priority therefore after you switch mence out and they grab a free swords dance/agility/nasty plot or whatever, you have no way to revenge kill it.

Also, a smart opponent will know when you will pop salamence in and out to pass wishes giving ample time to set up, so I just advised caution.

It made sense, i just don't think you wanted it to so that you can make yourself look like a know-it-all for your first post here... And by the way, welcome =P
No, I know what you were talking about. The fact is that EVERY Salamence that runs Draco Meteor and uses it is almost always set up bait the second the attack lands. I do suggest OP to test Dragon Pulse but it is a lackluster secondary option. The reason I said this didn't make sense is because you're trying to differentiate this from other Draco Meteor Salamence sets. I see no point to mention something I'm sure OP is well aware of.

I also see you don't mention anything about Leaf Storm on Celebi. Honestly I feel it is more viable to lose Leaf Storm on Celebi due to Grass being bad type coverage and being much more open to revenge killing than Mence due to Pursuit trapping. Makes it much weaker against the occassion CB/LO Metagross who can easily wreck this team.

I'm not trying to make you look bad lol. I'm just saying the post didn't really make sense to just say "Hey, Draco Meteor leaves you open after you use it". Next time try something like: "Since Celebi has Life Orb it makes it a bit more viable to use the elemental burnout attack Leaf Storm, but Salamence does not have enough investment to effectively run Draco Meteor since it isn't hard to set up on afterwards. I suggest you try Dragon Pulse as a more conservative option." Even that felt too drawn out. Quick, concise, to the point. Though I know I put a lot of 'fluff' in my posts as well.

Thanks for the welcome ;D
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ARandomBoy

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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyWed Feb 24, 2010 9:05 pm

Herpdidderp wrote:
@ARandomBoy: Never use Vaporeon unless your team has Rapid Spin support is a rule I use for slower teams like this one that's more about bulky offense. Lack of SR makes Vaporeon very Toxic Spikes weak. And Toxic ruins Vaporeon thoroughly. Honestly Vaporeon cannot check Mence effectively, though it is a nice defense to Gyarados. Vaporeon cannot switch into Mence easily and usually ends up being nothing more than a staller and sturdy Gyara counter while cautiously checking other threats. Even Jolly DD Mence OHKO's Vaporeon with SR down (87.18% of the time so any form of prior damage secures it) and Adamant outright OHKO's. And without a Spinner there is no way you can make sure SR is away so it is in no way a check. It can't switch into Mix Mence either since it's 2HKO'd by LO Outrage and Naive Mence's Draco Meteor then Outrage. To reiterate Vaporeon is a bad Mence check, more of a revenge killer if you don't mind it being crippled or keeping it at 100% the whole match.

Mence is worse. Mence cannot check Mence. Mence stays the f*ck away from Mence. You can't do anything to it other than hope for a revenge kill on one not set up.

The team needs RS support if it has Mence running around. Mix Mence teams are extremely dependant on bringing down Scizor if they care about Mence living for more than a turn. Tinkerbell really really hates both Toxic Spikes and Spikes if they're accompanied with SR since it really can only take one hit well and has to recover it off later. Spikes/TS/SR neuter that set essentially. Same thing goes for Heatran to an extent, though it has no issues with Toxic Spikes. Rest/Sleep Talk sets really hate Spikes/SR set up since they have to Rest constantly to deal with minor hits which makes them easier to set up on (TS adds to this but not in this case due to Heatran's immunity). This team is bulky offense and having a spinner is really advantageous to it's survival.

lol, I never said anything about Mence trying to check Mence. xD lol!

And, okay, Vappy isn't a Mence counter. But it can check it / force it out, to a certain extent.

Mence doesn't necessarily need RS support. If it has Wish support instead, you can use it if you play carefully and not extremely predictable. It takes some skill, but the payoff can be great.

And, okay, so you'd be suspectible to Toxic Spikes. But really, it's pointless to argue that a team can be made without flaw. Maybe, should Bulldogs choose to take my suggestion, that's this teams losing point. No team is going to be perfect.

Also, you're turning this into a rather 'harsh' arguement. Neutral

I'm not one to get into that, so I'm done here.
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Herpdidderp

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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyWed Feb 24, 2010 9:52 pm

ARandomBoy wrote:
lol, I never said anything about Mence trying to check Mence. xD lol!

And, okay, Vappy isn't a Mence counter. But it can check it / force it out, to a certain extent.

Mence doesn't necessarily need RS support. If it has Wish support instead, you can use it if you play carefully and not extremely predictable. It takes some skill, but the payoff can be great.

And, okay, so you'd be suspectible to Toxic Spikes. But really, it's pointless to argue that a team can be made without flaw. Maybe, should Bulldogs choose to take my suggestion, that's this teams losing point. No team is going to be perfect.

Also, you're turning this into a rather 'harsh' arguement. Neutral

I'm not one to get into that, so I'm done here.
Silly me, must have misread that.

Perhaps I am being a bit too brash with my arguments, I tend to do that. My apologies.

LO Mix Mence is terribly weak to Stealth Rock/SS and doesn't last more than a few turns if Scizor is still around. After a single switch in to anything that doesn't hurt Salamence and a turn to attack, it has lost 47.5% if both SR and SS are up which is common. This team also lacks phazing and any more entry hazards than Stealth Rock. And with Vaporeon taking over for Blastoise it has no Spin support and thus Salamence would not last long. Vaporeon is generally a poor candidate to pass to Salamence since the only thing Vaporeon could attract that Salamence would like to switch into is Celebi or another rare Grass attack aimed at Vaporeon, and Heatran thanks to a basic reliable source of healing and a much higher defensive investment against Grass Knot would be a much better candidate for the switch. I don't feel this combination will benefit the team as is and turn it a bit more offensive than it needs to be. This is of course in my opinion, OP can express his preference.

I agree Mence can work with Wish support if played carefully but it's not as reliable as with Rapid Spin support. Especially if the opponent has a phazer that this team can't do much to such as the uncommon Roar Zapdos or having issues bringing Celebi into Swampert. Draco Meteor on the current Mence set helps against it but only to an extent.

I completely agree that a team can't be made without flaw. The strategy of the team is more important than covering every flaw. That's why I'm very iffy with the Tinkerbell as it leaves his team open to faster bulky teams. I am not a fan of his Mence either and I am very uncomfortable with Blastoise. If you change Mence/Stoise his team would lose a good amount of physical bulk and Rapid Spin support. And if OP makes Celebi more defensive which would be more comforting he'd have trouble with Suicune. This is a hard team to suggest for without going outside the boundaries of what is necessary for it.

Honestly Latias would probably be your best bet and trying Roar on Blastoise which would help you deal with a lot more threats and do a bit of softening. I also feel like you could use a Spiker but you'd have to give up a vital member of the team in order to do so. Skarmory could lead for your team if you want to stick with Mence since it has more than enough survivability and handles Lucario which is basically all Gliscor is doing other than laying Stealth Rock which Skarm does as well. If you feel the team needs to be more offensive ARandomBoy's suggestions are more what you're looking for, honestly Mix Mence would help you tear some teams up enough to make Heracross' sweep a bit more buttery. I'd always switch Heatran to a bulky yet still offensive set, such as Substitute. Your team would lose quite a bit of survivability and Heracross would need a more offensive set, but it would work as well.

An alternative spread for Heatran is 252 HP/ 56 Special Attack/ 200 Special Defense if your current Ev's aren't doing anything specific. Since you're using Modest you want to hit a jump point in the stat with a + nature for wiser Ev distribution.
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ARandomBoy

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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyThu Feb 25, 2010 8:33 am

Herpdidderp wrote:
ARandomBoy wrote:
lol, I never said anything about Mence trying to check Mence. xD lol!

And, okay, Vappy isn't a Mence counter. But it can check it / force it out, to a certain extent.

Mence doesn't necessarily need RS support. If it has Wish support instead, you can use it if you play carefully and not extremely predictable. It takes some skill, but the payoff can be great.

And, okay, so you'd be suspectible to Toxic Spikes. But really, it's pointless to argue that a team can be made without flaw. Maybe, should Bulldogs choose to take my suggestion, that's this teams losing point. No team is going to be perfect.

Also, you're turning this into a rather 'harsh' arguement. Neutral

I'm not one to get into that, so I'm done here.
Silly me, must have misread that.

Perhaps I am being a bit too brash with my arguments, I tend to do that. My apologies.

LO Mix Mence is terribly weak to Stealth Rock/SS and doesn't last more than a few turns if Scizor is still around. After a single switch in to anything that doesn't hurt Salamence and a turn to attack, it has lost 47.5% if both SR and SS are up which is common. This team also lacks phazing and any more entry hazards than Stealth Rock. And with Vaporeon taking over for Blastoise it has no Spin support and thus Salamence would not last long. Vaporeon is generally a poor candidate to pass to Salamence since the only thing Vaporeon could attract that Salamence would like to switch into is Celebi or another rare Grass attack aimed at Vaporeon, and Heatran thanks to a basic reliable source of healing and a much higher defensive investment against Grass Knot would be a much better candidate for the switch. I don't feel this combination will benefit the team as is and turn it a bit more offensive than it needs to be. This is of course in my opinion, OP can express his preference.

I agree Mence can work with Wish support if played carefully but it's not as reliable as with Rapid Spin support. Especially if the opponent has a phazer that this team can't do much to such as the uncommon Roar Zapdos or having issues bringing Celebi into Swampert. Draco Meteor on the current Mence set helps against it but only to an extent.

I completely agree that a team can't be made without flaw. The strategy of the team is more important than covering every flaw. That's why I'm very iffy with the Tinkerbell as it leaves his team open to faster bulky teams. I am not a fan of his Mence either and I am very uncomfortable with Blastoise. If you change Mence/Stoise his team would lose a good amount of physical bulk and Rapid Spin support. And if OP makes Celebi more defensive which would be more comforting he'd have trouble with Suicune. This is a hard team to suggest for without going outside the boundaries of what is necessary for it.

Honestly Latias would probably be your best bet and trying Roar on Blastoise which would help you deal with a lot more threats and do a bit of softening. I also feel like you could use a Spiker but you'd have to give up a vital member of the team in order to do so. Skarmory could lead for your team if you want to stick with Mence since it has more than enough survivability and handles Lucario which is basically all Gliscor is doing other than laying Stealth Rock which Skarm does as well. If you feel the team needs to be more offensive ARandomBoy's suggestions are more what you're looking for, honestly Mix Mence would help you tear some teams up enough to make Heracross' sweep a bit more buttery. I'd always switch Heatran to a bulky yet still offensive set, such as Substitute. Your team would lose quite a bit of survivability and Heracross would need a more offensive set, but it would work as well.

An alternative spread for Heatran is 252 HP/ 56 Special Attack/ 200 Special Defense if your current Ev's aren't doing anything specific. Since you're using Modest you want to hit a jump point in the stat with a + nature for wiser Ev distribution.

No worries. Wink I just felt the need to stop the arguement before it got into a full-out rage war. xD


I definitely see your point about SR + SS. Residual damage with Mence's worst enemy. Wink

If you are going for a defensive sort of team, Latias is easily the better choice. The only resistance Mence has the Latias doesn't is Bug, and that's already covered by Heatran, Gliscor, and Heracross. Latias also has a superior support movepool, including Wish and dual screens.

It's funny, actually. First we're arguing, then we're agreeing with each other. xD
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Blumey

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PostSubject: RE: Introducing......owait   Introducing...owait EmptyThu Feb 25, 2010 7:19 pm

Yay for ingenuity and new ideas. But you need a Gyarados Counter, and once your Blastoise is gone...... Twisted Evil FlinchHax Jirachi kill.
Switch Salamence to physical give it 252 attack, 152 spe and 106 HP. Give it Scarf, Fire Fang, Thunder Fang, Outrage and something else for coverage.
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Bulldogs




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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyThu Feb 25, 2010 7:33 pm

No, just no. Flinch Hax Jirachi will never beat me due to Heatran as well as Blastoise.

I'm not all that Gyara weak either tbh. If he comes in on Gliscor he is taunted. If he comes in on Tran he must risk a burn. If he comes in on Blastoise he eats a Toxic. If he comes in on Hera SE says hi. If he comes in on Mence he will have to take a DM which is a 2HKO after SR Damage.
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Darkravenn12

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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyThu Feb 25, 2010 7:44 pm

Blumey wrote:
Yay for ingenuity and new ideas. But you need a Gyarados Counter, and once your Blastoise is gone...... Twisted Evil FlinchHax Jirachi kill.
Switch Salamence to physical give it 252 attack, 152 spe and 106 HP. Give it Scarf, Fire Fang, Thunder Fang, Outrage and something else for coverage.
just no
that's a horrible moveset
just use the standard dd mence moveset if u decide to use mence on this team
fire fang and t-fang on mence is just no, and dd gives u the same speed as scar as well as more attack, so i think it would be much better
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Herpdidderp

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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyThu Feb 25, 2010 11:03 pm

Darkravenn12 wrote:
just no
that's a horrible moveset
just use the standard dd mence moveset if u decide to use mence on this team
Quick question: why? He has no entry hazards so DD Mence will never sweep effectively and the team is centered around Heracross. So use a late game sweeper mid-game seems counter productive. Not to mention it doesn't help his Lucario weakness if he loses his bulk and reliable recovery on Mence. Sure he can outrun it but doesn't havethe reassurance he can handle it. And since DD Mence will be used mid-game odds are it's crippled before it has it's use of taking care of Lucario. This team is a form of bulky stall, generally Salamence just plain doesn't work on bulky stall unless it's their specific late game sweeper or main set up sweeper. That's more why I would like him to switch it for Latias who is much bulkier and provides more support moves for the team as well as reliable recover through Roost (or Recover) and Wish if need be. Also outruns MixApe which is important on this team and lacks Salamence's SR weakness.
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Darkravenn12

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PostSubject: Re: Introducing...owait   Introducing...owait EmptyFri Feb 26, 2010 6:02 am

Herpdidderp wrote:
Darkravenn12 wrote:
just no
that's a horrible moveset
just use the standard dd mence moveset if u decide to use mence on this team
Quick question: why? He has no entry hazards so DD Mence will never sweep effectively and the team is centered around Heracross. So use a late game sweeper mid-game seems counter productive. Not to mention it doesn't help his Lucario weakness if he loses his bulk and reliable recovery on Mence. Sure he can outrun it but doesn't havethe reassurance he can handle it. And since DD Mence will be used mid-game odds are it's crippled before it has it's use of taking care of Lucario. This team is a form of bulky stall, generally Salamence just plain doesn't work on bulky stall unless it's their specific late game sweeper or main set up sweeper. That's more why I would like him to switch it for Latias who is much bulkier and provides more support moves for the team as well as reliable recover through Roost (or Recover) and Wish if need be. Also outruns MixApe which is important on this team and lacks Salamence's SR weakness.
i was responding to blumey's mence thing, as that set just doenst work, that's y i said, if u do decide to use mence on this team
latias would be better all around, so just use it
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